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and love a SA trigger. WebWhen youre in the midst of dealing with an attack, the reduction in blood flow to your hands (along with the chemical changes in your body) will likely result in an increase in your pain threshold. 9mm beats .45acp. After 22 years as a combat soldier, I am kind of partial to the .45 ACP, but I shoot modern, guide rod equipped with aftermarket sights, not rack guns. ammo. We cannot recreate these or even reliably use the data. We were allowed to carry bone stock ( night sights ok. weapon purchased at our own expense ) Smith and Glock 21s ( It was the 2nd Gen Glock era. I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2023 Concealed Carry Inc. All Rights Reserved. JP-Thank you for your real life documentation. With a bone thats been shot with a standard-issue caliber handgun, youll see a break, a hole in the bone, and maybe some displacement. Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. It can also destroy your aim, and the strongest bullet on earth is useless if it doesnt hit the bad guy coming at you. While massive trauma to the circulatory system can cause incapacitation, this takes time. Died instantly. #firearmtraining. Give SOCOM GLocks which shoot 9mm (Glocks are great guns and I dont have a problem with the 9mm, great cartridge especially with all the advancements over the last 30 years) as I was saying problem solved. He is the current USPSA Carry Optics Colorado State Champion and most recently won 3rd place in Master Class at the 2022 USPSA Carry Optics National Championship. Studies based on law enforcement shootings that are available to us show that only one or two solid torso hits can be expected at best. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. Im no expert by the way but, I know that said air resistance on the nose of the bullet is NOT the predominate factor in any ballistics array. THAT shot better make a change. Now for long engagements that are seen more in military ops and where fire suppression matters most I prefer 9mm. Body The comments concerning shot placement are correct. All the scientific debates the fact is both are great but its interesting to me as a marine my understanding that the 45 was developed for the jungle warfare against drugged up Muslim extremist in the Philippines inthat timeframe and then fast forward to Falluja drugged up Muslims extremist And everybody Marines wanted 45 again In real situations Where it matters most I just wrote my friend who is in the thick of - and Falluja lost an arm multiple casualties and his answer was quick and simple 45. Thanks. The .9mm, took3 rounds to the chest and he never even paused. The smaller size of the 9mm also allows for more rounds per magazine, as well as lighter weapons. What I have also seen on the range at 25 yards, while shooting steel silhouette time after time, was the 9mm would fail to kick the silhouette out of the track 7 out of 10 times without placing another shot. Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. If, God forbid, you are ever in a situation where you are required to use your handgun, there is, to put it mildly, a great deal at stake. Its unlikely Id ever have to shoot at anything other than paper targets. I find that there is a difference when using 9mm vs .45acp. For you to dissect their writings may be fun but not productive. finds relevant news, identifies important training information, If it doesnt get deleted for my impatience with thoughtless comments. IGN Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. It worries me that you feel safe carrying a .45 acp around bears and moose. Guns dont kill people. Sorry for the rant. Soldiers and police officers are far more likely to engage multiple targets in extended shootouts with adversaries, and therefore have a much greater need for a high capacity pistol than I will in a self-defense scenario. .45 ACP FMJ doesnt normally make bad people flop to the ground instantaneously unless it hits the brain or spinewhich is probably what happened, given his skills. Depends. If you throw it at someone, not so much. If its fired from a Thompson Submachine gun, its almost guaranteed to be lethal. I still prefer the .45. Im an athletic guy so handling the recoil is not too bad. Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. So modern ammo IS NOT the reason to switch back to the 9mm. A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy of the human body Wellcome L0024128.jpg 1,100 1,796; 960 KB. What i find interesting is that so many people have so much to say and they have never been in actual shoot out. In case you didn't get the memo, the FBI's ballistic testing labs are the best in the world, and they've been doing it for a long time. Even later to the conversation but figured Id throw my ring in the hate. The pistol is not their primary weapon. Dan, your and many others comments ring true. There are a number of factors involved, including physical, psychological and physiological, but human bodies are much more durable than is commonly believed. And other trauma surgeons are on record as saying that they cannot tell the difference between wounds caused by 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. Very accurate and deadly, The bullet travels at 1450 FPS. I am sure the debate will go on till the last Cockroach dies . Thats just because most folks never have to shoot someone firing at them. Great little weapon !!! While there are uninformed opinions regarding stopping power, thankfully, there is also plenty of credible research. Patrick points out that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support voluntary, life-threatening actions against an officer for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. We had competant and caring armorers and shooting instructors ( These guys gave a fuck and went out of their way for you ). and departments. There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. Which is better? In 30 years I saw a shit-ton of things. It has something to do with occasions where they might carry concealed: Since last year, MARSOC has purchased and fielded 1,654 Glock 19s because Raiders needed a reliable secondary weapon that could be used for both a concealed carry profile and a low-visibility profile, and having one approved pistol for all special operators saves money, he said. Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. I like to study real world crime stats and self-defense incidents; and study hundreds of shootings every year. The Ruger SR1911 is comfortable for some reason and I have considered getting one from time to time. It enters the human body at energies approaching the speed of light and /9mm has a lot more options when it comes to ammo but I prefer my Springfield XD .45 or my Kimber Custom II 1911. Mine is easily concealable, accurate and has never failed to function. This may be called Tools or use an icon like the cog. All rights reserved. However, in early 2015 the door was cracked open, allowing them to choose Glock 19's (chambered in 9mm) instead of their larger counterpart. The better the bullet and the shot placement of an officer, the more likely the officer will go home after a shooting. Thats right George. Lexipol. But you have no proof that the .45 ACP will work that much better. Copyright 2023 True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. Greater tissue displacement is likely to lead to more blood loss. Pretty broad pattern where adrenaline can also make hands shake. Shot placement is often cited as a consideration when choosing the right handgun for self defense and for good reason its definitely important. This is real life experience not article information research. Well my neighbor finally bought the pistol from him and turned around and qualified with it in front of the other deputy. Because of the impracticality of training for headshots, this examination of handgun wounding relative to law enforcement use is focused upon torso wounds and the probable results. CHEERS. What causes more damage, .45cal pistol or 5.56 mm rifle? Just as in the case of the military, my agencies biggest determining factors for this decision were not anything to do with the performance of the rounds or the effectiveness for the safety of the officer. Bullet coursing from behind the knee to my heel. They also have a budget. I usually only post on the Reloading and Springfield portions of this forum, but I feel it needs to be stated of course that all the well educated and sincere folks who have posted actual facts regarding calibers and flung mass "shapes" are simply trying to destroy the internet and forums like these. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. But to suggest they made the change due to the reasons quoted aboveparticularly because the 9mm supposedly has greater penetration due to less air resistanceis complete hogwash! The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. Damage: 22. Hit your enemy Quickly and Hes Dead. When I left LE I traided for a S&W 39-2 9mm. The former is by far the leading reason for handgun ownership. This remained the norm in the FBI until May 2014. I have 9 mm and I own mostly 45 ACPs, I can conceal a combat Commander with a small of the back holster with shorts T-shirt and flip-flops and nobody will know its there. At 880 fps a 230 grains projectile has 395 foot pounds of muzzle energy. Ill take an M4, even with the M855 green-tip ammo that everyone says sucks, over an MP40 or a Thompson or any handgun any day of the week. Sorry for the lengthy comment just my humble opinion. False. also carry a lcp ruger 380 in a desantis pocket holster, covers the trigger guard real nice. These are the only two factors you can expect to remain constant in any situation. Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. A more accurate equation is (terminal) Energy, defined as 1/2 the mass times the velocity squared. How higher speed, greater mass, and more surface area increase the damage that rounds can do to human bodies. Web9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. Our team, our mission, our partners, and more. I also read a recent article about a fishing guide who shot and killed a grizzly bear with a 147gr, 9mm from a S&W 3913. If youre being attacked or in the process of deterring an oncoming attack, fear can have an affect. I like my Colt GOV. In July, reports indicated that the top candidates in the final running for the new $17 million-dollar Modular Handgun System (MHS) contract to replace the current Beretta M9 included Glock's G17, the Sig Sauer P320, Smith & Wesson's M&P, and the new Beretta APX among others. Just how common are self-defense uses of firearms? Sick and tried of people not in the field deciding what is best for those in the field. Then you missed. This reasoning may not make sense to many of you, but it does to me. For almost 17 years that I carred a badge I carried a S&W 357 on a K frame. Fire Rate: 240 rounds/minute. Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. The mechanism by which adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma (ACP) damages the hypothalamus is still unclear. Hogwash!! The two calibers no one wants to get tagged by . He became an FBI agent and served in the FBI for 30 years, retiring in the position of supervisory special agent/chief division counsel. thanks for your time, greg. As Sir Isaac Newton pointed out a few centuries ago, for every action theres an equal reaction in the opposite direction. 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles that are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI. Testing shows terminal ballistics of modern 9mm is virtually the same as the .40S&W or the older .45ACP round. However, if the bullet lacks a JHP configuration, then its not doing as well as it could. 45 I carry a number of different calibers depending on what Im wearing that day and where I intend to go; but I no longer even own a 9mm. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! There are other similar handgun calibers, such as the .44 Special and the .45 Colt, and of course, the .357 SIG and 10mm Auto are Penetration, velocity, expansion, its all there. Both hit 15 first shot, .45 exploded watermelon leaving trails about 15 feet behind, 9mm put a hole in it nothing more. One other thing that is interesting to note, during a military engagement in which soldiers were issued .38-caliber sidearms, they found that the bullets were ineffective against the natives who were fond of using drugs before engaging in combat, and thus were numbed to the impacts of the bullets. My partner and I got to the apartment and the door was open. It scares the hell out of me to think I might have had to use a 9 mm. I dont have a dog in that race but it is important to give proper information, not just anything that will satisfy your viewpoint no matter how erroneous. Both really do not muster up for the Marines. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. And it is acceptable to me that they made at least some of their determination based on the need to accommodate smaller hands. quick defense trigger and has an extended 17rnd clip. It got up and walked about 25 yards before falling. So you better have the biggest heaviest bullet going down range that you can possibly get. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. The damage is often extensive, and not just for those who die. Some basic physics explains why the choice of weapon, or more precisely, the choice of bullet, enabled the suspect, James Hodgkinson, who was killed by law enforcement officers, to wreak so much havoc. First off when you call a magazine a CLIP, everything you say is null and void as far as Im concerned. These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. Ive shot both calibers at humans as a soldier and as a LEO and 9mm just doesnt get the same results as 45 in the same number of shots. Daniel, the US has generally abided by the Hague (and Geneva) Conventions and their respective protocols. .45 ACP is not the one-shot-stopping hammer that some people think it is. But the guy kept on coming. Not to suggest that a skilled shooter (and/or soldier or Marine) couldnt shoot it, but almost anybody is going to be faster with a 9mm in their hands. I preferred carrying them before things went bad for me. Wounding one enemy combatant to take three out of the fight (or at least two) was a good argument when we were facing civilized enemies such as the Germans in WW II. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. The same companies make the 45acp and other calibers! His career began as a special agent with NCIS. Of handgun owners alone, 63 percent owned these for the purpose of protecting themselves against other people, with another 20 percent owning them for protection against animals. I carry a 9mm on me at all times, and I feel it is adequate enough to do what I need from a handgun, but I have them loaded with 147gr JHP ammo. To each their own. Id use either! I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. A 9 is a great backup. Going on 7 years Law Enforcement here with a rough Dept. The programs, policies, and people driving positive change in Americas gun violence problem. But I agree, I would LOVE to see more true American companies represented!! One hit with any caliber has more stopping power than 100 misses with any caliber, type bullet or inherent accuracy. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62. can weigh in at 125 grains. of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. AND.carry what YOU are comfortable and accurate with. Missing it not an option. If another prefers a 9mm let him use it. Now its true that most of those victims wounds ultimately proved fatal; but its also true that they were far from incapacitated and either did or could have returned fire if they were also armed. Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. The one that traveled the furthest was looking back over its shoulder and was hit in the muzzle. In their book, Defense of Self and Others, FBI firearms training experts John Hall and Urey Patrick (ret. I have the perfect picture for this: Those pins stayed in place for 18 months while the bone knit. It is a poor idea to keep your finger inside the When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. So, is the 9mm the ultimate handgun around? Americans have this impression, I think, that comes from watching too many old movies, that a bullet fired from a handgun is supposed to flip the bad guys ten feet into the air, if not disintegrate them altogether and leave a smoking pair of haji sandals on the pavement where they were. The new .50Ae desert eagle has as much recoil as the 1911/M45 which is unrealistc (the .45 has alot less recoil). Its only a pistol. Both calibers have been proven to be effectively lethal.. Ive usually have to chase guys shot with 9mm. Every shooting incident is a unique and unreplicable event. human body I have had to fire both and knowing that the 9 mm is a lighter piece of lead compared to the 45 ACP it is all about placement then. Even the Scout Snipers are still using the .308, whereas superior platforms are using .300 Win Mags and .338 Lapuas. I spent FAR more money letting her out every pistol they had for rent than I did purchasing her final choice. Were they not the agency who got thier asses handed to them that created this debate in the first place? Im very confident a 45 caliber would have been one and done. Still, I think when we're talking about pistol caliber handguns, it's pretty hard to measure any substantial accuracy differences when we're rarely shooting at distances greater than 15-25 yards if that. The two most important factors to consider, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavitation. I carry a para-ordinance warthog in 45 when its cold.I shoot the gun enought to know I can hit what Im aiming at. In 1985, the US military replaced the .45 ACP with the 9mm round for its standard sidearm. The .357sig does have very impressive ballistics. ago Haha. After reading comments from many veterans here, and from what ive seen on the streets, in a true life or death situation give me the largest slug possible. Last summer had a large male black bear tried to enter my camper. Secondly, if you you tube ballistic testing of the 9mm and 45acp, lets say using Federal HSTs you will see that the 9mm round is more than capable and every bit as functional as the 45 in getting the job done. Alvin York was a prodigy, a natural marksman of frankly terrifying and borderline-supernatural skill. To my way of thinking, its great as a CC gun, or that in the boot back-up. WebBlack Talon is a brand of hollow-point pistol and rifle ammunition introduced in 1991 by Winchester, primarily intended for law enforcement and personal defense use.Black Talon rounds were known for the unique construction of the bullet and its sharp petal shape after expansion following impact with tissue or other wet media. Finally, someone mentions what type of ammo is being used. Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. are 9mm rounds substantially more accurate than their larger caliber brethren? Leave it to a bunch of idiot Marines to bring a pistol to a rifle fight. Rifle rounds have an elongated, oblong shape and so they often tumble.